NASCAR orders Toyota to lower Nationwide horsepower
Quote selected text Published July 23rd, 2008 in NASCAR News
NASCAR tried to even out the competition in the Nationwide Series on Wednesday by ordering all teams using Toyota motors to squeeze down their horsepower before this weekend’s race in Indianapolis.
Toyota has won 14 of 21 races this season in the Nationwide Series, and all but one of them have come in a Camry fielded by Joe Gibbs Racing. The exception was JGR driver Kyle Busch’s victory at Charlotte in May in a car fielded by Braun Racing.
NASCAR recently sent 10 different motors for testing, and found that David Reutimann’s Toyota was the best with an estimated 3 percent horsepower advantage over the competition.
- NASCAR to clip Toyota’s wings?
- Harvick says Toyota is ahead of everybody on horsepower
- Toyota’s White says he was told cheating on horsepower ‘prevalent’ in garage
- Toyota not happy with NASCAR
- Toyota has horsepower advantage at Daytona-UPDATE
good job nascar. see you can make the right call some of the time… too bad it took 21 races to figgure it out….
now lets get the cup cars even
Doesnt make sense…. there is no way that the 2 or 3 extra horsepower found in David Reutiman’s engine can make up for all of the excellent proformance made by the Gibbs car that was 5th in the dyno test. I think that that shows how the other teams need to work as hard as gibbs team and need to work on chemistry just like Joey Logano and his entire team. Just doesnt make sense.
3% not 3 HP, thats a HUGE difference my friend
What’s pathetic is that instead of telling the other teams/manufacturers to put up or shut up, they took the easy way out and told Toyota to somehow limit their power in three days’ time. Unfortunately, for people like Jack Roush, it’s easier to cry and point the finger at someone else for your problems knowing that NASCAR will swoop in and bail you out eventually.
It’s not like Toyota is running a bigger motor or some kind of crazy tricks to get their power… Anyone could go out and make just as much or more power if they wanted to. 3% HP is a good bit, but it’s not unreasonable to think that your engine shop could come up with the difference if you’re one of the big boys like Roush or Hendrick.
Look at the article here:
http://www.nascar.com/2008/news/headlines/bg/07/22/toyota.engine/index.html
“If you take out the best and the worst, the first and the 10th car, and you look at those eight in the middle — and we were in the middle — there was a lot of parity, more than NASCAR could ask for. You have a two-horsepower spread that captures six or seven cars.”
Rogers cites the most recent data to bolster the argument that NASCAR doesn’t need to make changes to the engine rules, but Nationwide Series director Joe Balash says the sanctioning body is still analyzing the cumulative results and hasn’t decided whether action is needed to even out the competition.
Of course there’s more to it than horsepower, but according to the article, that’s what the complaint is.
so the other three makes don’t do their homework, cry like babies, then Toyota (the only engineers doing their job) get penalized. This is pure BS.
Actually 3% at the numbers they are making is not a lot.
The faster a car is going the more energy it uses to make little gains. Going 10mph that 3% would be a lot, but going 180 that 3% would work out to barely be enough to make the car go 181.
I’ll see if I can find the exact example that taught me that and I’ll post it if I do.
But what I want to know is how come Chevy was not penalized last year when they were dominating the series?
Ok just found it. This is from another forum that I read.
Mike Henry Jr wrote:
“Sit on a 3HP go kart, then try a shifter kart for instance.
Then tell me how much 50HP means.”
In response to that Yara Wrote:
“Big differance between 3hp and 53hp….. not a big differance in say 803hp and 853hp
When a object is in motion the required amount of force to propel it forward increases as the velocity increases until you reach terminal velocity. When an object is already going 160mph, the force required to propel the object up to 161 mph is MUCH more than the force required to propel an object from 0mph to 1mph.
Chevy was dominating like this last season… its just Xenophobia”
So really 3HP or even 3% more HP isn’t that big of a deal. In fact you need EQ that can handle the HP, you need a team that can get it done on the pitstops, and you need the luck and skill to turn that HP into a win.
This isn’t drag racing where HP is everything, this is Stock car racing where HP is a very small piece of the pie.
minority wrote:
It happened with Ford back in the 90’s too. It was BS then and it’s BS now.
Wow Nascar must be taking plays out of the FIA playbook as this is eerily similar to Renault and the mass damper.
Well how bout DODGE the HP quotes reported earlier where that they to had more horsepower then ford and chevy, and what about the cup series how come everyone is crying saying TOYOTA has an advantage and thats why are they dominating, how come they dont make them lowet the cup series horsepower. Jeff well said i agree with you, nascar opened the door let a company who does things right and makes a good product and this is why everyone was against toyota being here, everyone was scared of getting shown up by a bunch of foreigners and now we have been shown up they are going to penalize them like they are cheating, i say these other companies need to step up
If it had been a Hendrick car/team dominating, NASCAR wouldn’t even be discussing it….
come on rowdy…im waiting on the Dale Jr comment…this thread dont have one yet…and u are usually the one that brings it up…so im waiting….
I hate to agree with you but your right
This was a long time coming, Its not up to the American teams to spend millions of dollars to catch up on Foreign money. This is a sport that grew from the short tracks of the Northeast and the South with little to no money and now if you wanted to get into this sport you could if you wanted too because of the money it takes to be competitive. For years the 3 manufactures were close and never had to develop a new motor now we have tapered spacers on trucks and cars and it sucks. And for you guys on here to defend Toyota and say its up to the American companys to catch up, well you never hung around your local dirt tracks or knew any racers because you would have you butts kicked for a remark like that. Because this sport is not suppose to be about MONEY. Its suppose to be about a bunch of guys getting together and putting on a good show for the fans.
jeez Kenneth, whats goin on here, that was by post above.
ROWDY BUSH wrote:
Actually i dont believe it’s in the engines, JGR has found something that noone has caught onto yet but the other teams will figure it out. and as far as Dodge having more HP their nose is so bad they need it just to keep up.
THETRU,,,
First of all I agree with what you said, but on the other hand growing up around short tracks, one thing you learn quick is there is always someone out there with more money then the next guy, and its up to the guys who dont have the money to find ways to think outside the box to keep up with performance.. I agree with you about us sticking up for toyota and foreign money, but truth be told that foreign money is also spending alot of money in this country and supporting alot of american famlies. Nascar allowed nascar to join this sport, and it is no secret they will spend what ever money needed to win, as they are doing in F1 where they arent even winning. Bottom line is they are here and they have raised the bar as chevy did a year ago when they dominated. Teams have been raising the bar for years forcing other teams to step up which they have, the only difference now is that it is a new team that happens to be foreign.
First off I own a Toyota Camry and like Toyota and have no problem with them being in NASCAR.
However, I don’t have on Toyota goggles and act like Toyota doesn’t have an edge.
1. It is obvious that Toyota has a HP edge and NASCAR has kissed their butt.
2. NASCAR let Toyota know a week before that they were pulling engines so of course Toyota was ready, and yes Kyle doing a burnout and hitting high RPM’s in the mud could have really reduced HP. ( and yes if I was him I would have burnt the motor up myself knowing it was getting pulled.)
3. To say that HMS dominated last year and nothing being done about it is erroneus because this is all about Nationwide not Cup, and HMS did not dominate Nationwide.
4. The dyno’s also showed that HMS didn’t have a big HP advantage over other teams last year like Toyota does. HMS had the other stuff to go along with it, hence the reason that JGR is the only team dominating with the Toyota HP.
And JGR does have a advantage in the 20 car besides horsepower in that the JGR engineering staff has developed a very successful front end geometry that allows the new COT car to turn easier, erasing one of the new car’s biggest complaints.
As possible proof, an official from a competing team pointed out that when Busch wrecked his car in Saturday morning practice at Pocono last month, JGR crew members were quick to cover up the front end with tarps as to not allow anyone else access to see how the front end, despite its damage, had been set up. Then, crew members hastily removed key parts to the front suspension as to not allow further inspection.
George,
I dont understand how can you penalize 1 team for finding horsepower and not another. Whos to say toyotas front clip isnt bad and we just havent seen it yet cause the field has been leveld with the horsepower. Dodge has a significant amount of horsepower over ford and chevy and they have yet to walk away with anything , this is just nascar penalizing a manufactuer for a team who is on there game, this wasnt a penalty against toyota but they have penalized jgr, there are plenty more toyotas in the series and because one team does good nascar penalizes all of them
So what your saying is when Honda comes in in 2010 and blows away everyone else thats ok too. is that the kind of sport you really want to watch?
HOWIE
thats all speculation how bout when Mcdowell kamikazeed the wall and destroyed the 00 they covered that car up, and if they have found something good for them, thats the point of this series to think outside the box. As long as jgr cars fit the claw then who are we to say they are cheating it is all speculation until it comes out or until they are made to change. at that point they still arent cheating if there are no rules on it, nascar is basically DUMMYING DOWN toyota fan and jgr for the other teams to catch up
it wasnt the 00 it was
kyles car that hit the wall
i understand that it was kyles car, i was compaing what you said when they covered up kyles car it was because they had something to hide, and i was asking then why when the 00 got destroyed in qualifying was that car covered up to did they have something to hide
MWR does not use the same chassis as JGR
Thetru7h wrote:
Like Rowdy said, the truth of the matter is that at any track across the country there’s always someone that will outspend the field, and there’s always someone working way beyond the gray area of the rulebook. That’s racing. It’s up to you to either outspend or out-engineer them. It’s always been that way, and with NASCAR clamping down on folks fooling with the bodies, it’s only going to shift even more towards money giving you an edge.
The big three have had DECADES in NASCAR to develop this same basic engine. Are you telling me that Toyota can waltz into the series with a year or two under their belts and figure it all out like that? Actually with the arrogance and laziness of the Big Three, that wouldn’t hardly surprise me too much.
howie,
nevermind you obviously dont understand what im asking.
WELL SAID JEFF
Jeff wrote:
thats not true at all, in the most competitive series in the USA such as DIRT, USAC, and the OUTLAW series the motors are all very equal. My cousin has over 800 wins and tons of championships and the top 3 motors are all striped down after the races.
And why should they have to spend money on new motors, NASCAR has been racing a 358 cu in motor since 1955. you can only go so fast on these tracks anyway.
howie
my unlces grandmas nephews brother sisters husband father races late models and he has a billion wins and 3 tons of championships in a mysterious series im not going to mention, bottom line is there are always people bending the rules and there are always people with more money and people who think of new ways to gain on the competition and i have never been to a late model track where everything is equal as you make it out to be
Nascar’s been all about money for a long time now actually, not just since Toyota came in last year. I may be wrong (and I’m sure someone will let me know) but I believe the first real sponsorship deal was STP with Petty and you can’t tell me that sponsorship money had nothing to do with his 200 wins. And Howie, since we’re talking DIRT, you can’t tell me Brett Hearn (at O.C.F.S) showed up every weekend without an advantage on his motors with big money Budweiser sponsorship against a local tow truck sponsored team.
ROWDY BUSH wrote:
that’s bull and that just goes to show you never have been to a a sanctioned race. I grew up in the DIRT series at Orange County, Nazareth, and New Egypt, my family has always owned a car and my cousin is Brett Hearn and the when it came to motors there was never a grey area. they checked your carbs and compression and weight after every race. the only thing you could change was gears.
Howie Motorsports Photography wrote:
your cousins Brett Hearn? are u serious? hahah i totally designed his racing t-shirt back in 2006 :D….thats awesome
Me wrote:
when we started out racing back in the 70s we didnt have Budweiser we had our speed shop which was Van Iderstine speed shop. and no all the motors were built by Hawthorne Chevy and they were all equal to everyone elses. Bud only came in years ago and are gone now.
I grew up in NY and was in Middletown every weekend through most of the 90’s. He drove for Freightliner and beat everyone, then Bud was in there after. Wasn’t Miller on his 358 car? Still alot of $$ sponsorships, showing up every week with the biggest set up. He can drive, but money does have alot to do with it… (On a side note, no offense to your cousin, but I was a fan of Johnson/Bachetti and used to sit a few rows behind Nut & Bolt by the start finish line… yeah I’m a little off subject now, but it’s been a while since I was back east
)
Why we are talking about local tracks and sponsorship, did anybody ever notice that cars that race on Dirt have no problem getting sponsors, but asphalt drivers do. Which is kind of wierd when you think about it because on Dirt cars the sponsorships get covered by mud most of the time by the time the race is over, but on asphalt they don’t.
There is this one driver, Bobby Gunther Walsh, that races up at Big Diamond (dirt) who around 20th in points and the guy has like 35 sponsors. And we are 8th in points with two wins at Mahoning Valley (asphalt) and have only be able to get like 4 sponsors.
Fisha695 wrote:
thats because you cant beat that 00 of Paul Koehler Jr. ha ha
Paul’s in a different class, and doesn’t even race at Mahoning weekly. He’s running for Points up at Mountain Speedway so he’s only at Mahoning when the Late Models have off at Mountain. We race Modifieds so if anything Paul can’t beat us…. l0l
Fisha, we got on this subject because ROWDY had said what goes on in NASCAR goes on in all the series. And I was making a point that in other series money does not buy championships.
I need to come up there next Saturday
ROWDY BUSH wrote:
OK. you mentioned Dodge, well they need the extra HP because the nose of that car is messed up.
And they will be handing down new rules in the Cup Series according to Robin Pemberton.
If Toyota would have stuck with the motor they debuted in 2007 their would be no dispute but they came out with the 2nd Generation motor and it was over on the bore.
Sorry to go off topic.
But,
Is anyone here going to be at the Jeff Gordon Charity Bowling Tournament Thursday?
Total BS! Marty Smith reported that Davod Ruitimann was first on the list of HP, but the next two were Roush fords, the 20 car of Joe Gibbs was 5th of 10 cars! Where is the advantage? This is absolutely disgusting.
rodger3 wrote:
well I dont know why Marty would say that because when they sent those 10 motors for testing, and found that David Reutimann’s Toyota was the best with an estimated 3 percent horsepower advantage over the competition. JGR’s No. 18 car—which Busch drove to victory at Chicago right before the motors were tested—was second
Roush Fenway Racing’s Nos. 16 and 17 Fords were next, followed by JGR’s No. 20 car, which has won nine races with four drivers this season.
JGR builds its own motors for its two Nationwide Series cars. The rest of the Toyota engines in that series and the Craftsman Truck Series come from Triad Racing Development, a Bill Davis-owned company that leases engines.
jgr has something I know that for sure. NO way does a cup car hit the wall three times and do so much damage to the right side and come thru the field three times to the front and win . NO FINg way. The rest of the field ford dodge and chevy all slow down when get damaged. Kyle drives around the field and pulls away..On the road coarse he was carring the the front tire and never breaking trackion or losing postion. If that isnt power ,well ,I dont know what is. I think THis 3 PERCENT thing b.s. Most teams would be happy to get 1% on the field. NOt sure what the answer is but I recall them making a change for ford to be more competitive not to long ago. THe nose or some thing. Well I say F*ck toyota open those motors up ,All teams can make horsepower , and let em breath. THey are bound by the rules. OR let em mess with the roof a little this whole cookie cutter we are all equal thing is crazy. THe big teams just use smaller teams buy setting them up with engine packages and chassis . U dont think they share info or help a little on the track. Please. It was announced that all toyota teams share info . If this is true that is a big advatage over the big three because they fight between themselves where toyota wants there name to win not the individual.
So now if Toyota has been restricted doesn’t that mean Ford now has an advantage? So shouldn’t Ford now be restricted? I mean after all NASCAR wants their series to become IROC with no innovation and no difference between each manufacture.
Briggs & Strattons for everyone!
Damn so they 20 car which is the car everyone was complaining about dominating and its 4th on the list lol that just proves to all you whiners that theres more to it then just horsepower, why would any other manufactuer even want to come to this series when they see they will be penalized for doing what the series is about and thats winning, good job nascar grab toyota by the hand and hold them back until the other less fortunate teams can catch up, pretty soon we are going to equal the special olympics, with the way nascar has to BABY teams
brett hearn… good guy… i talk with him from time to time at the races
i live 20 min from the orange county raceway, my cousin was a driver there as well, but she died 10 years ago this month, barbara luce, theres a memorial set up for her at the bar at the track.
Barbara is your cousin? Wow, I remember her and when it happened. Met her a couple of times, nice girl. I still have her memorial stuff.
I’m from Peekskill/Yorktown, now in Az.
Why is everyone freaking out?
Nascar goes through cycles like this.
Just recently we had Roush dominance in 2005
RCR did very well in 2006 after being no where
along with kasey kahne
And 2007 was Hendricks year while kasey kahne struggled.
Its the ups and downs and it cycles regularly. The others will
catch up eventually
Me wrote:
Yeah she was my cousin. Its sucks because i was only 13 at the time, but i hear the “accident” she was in may not have been an accident at all. I hear the boyfriend was jelous of her success.
there was a race on her the day she died 10 years ago, they did a wonderful tribute to her at OC. I dont have any memorial stuff of hers unfortunately, only pictures from us at lake george.
There was NO Homework Involed, NASCAR Allowed Toyota the Extra HP in their cars this year. No Brainer.
Nowe since they see their Money and Win Deal is Making the other Stables and Manfacts Pissed, Go Figure they are Changing their tune.
This Sport is Tainted My Friends. Who can pay the most for a WIN gets a WIN.
Toyota needed WINS. They Got them. Last Year they were CRAP.
Turn back the Hands of Time and Read Your Stats !!!!
MONEY TALKS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Well, well, well. What an uproar over NASCAR
acting on their Dictatorship!!! They will do what
their little pea brains tell them what is best for
competition and $$$ in the bank… What a
shame that competition has to be controlled in a sport that is supposed to be “pure competition”
just for the best interest of the powers that be!!!
Ganjadude wrote: