JGR to face huge penalties from NASCAR for cheating at dyno test
Quote selected text Published August 17th, 2008 in NASCAR News
The No. 18 and No. 20 Joe Gibbs Racing teams in the Nationwide Series will likely face big penalties after efforts to alter the results of a chassis dyno test.
NASCAR inspectors, preparing to do tests on horsepower numbers following Saturday’s Nationwide race at Michigan International Speedway, found magnets under the gas pedals on the two Gibbs Toyotas.
Tony Stewart, making his last Nationwide start for the Gibbs team, finished third in the No. 20, and 18-year-old rookie Joey Logano was seventh in the No. 18. The race was won by Carl Edwards in a Ford.
Toyota has won 15 of 25 races this season in Nationwide, and all but one came in a Camry fielded by Gibbs. The exception was JGR driver Kyle Busch’s victory at Charlotte in May in a car fielded by Braun Racing.
In the face of such domination, last month NASCAR ordered the Toyota Nationwide teams to use a smaller spacer to cut about 15 horsepower in their motors.
The incident Saturday was apparently an effort to keep the current numbers from looking too strong in the latest test.
“In our post-race inspection—yesterday was the day we were going to chassis dyno cars—our inspectors discovered some shims that were placed on the gas pedal stop,” Robin Pemberton, vice president of competition for NASCAR, said Sunday. “It was magnets that were about a quarter-inch thick that prevented the accelerator from going 100 percent wide open.
“The intention was to manipulate the numbers that we get when we get our information and data off the dyno.”
Pemberton said NASCAR officials will meet Monday and Tuesday to determine what penalties will be handed out.
“I anticipate that we haven’t seen the end of it yet,” Pemberton said when asked if the penalties were likely to be severe. “We historically don’t make our decisions within a 24-hour period. It takes time to get everybody in a group and talk about it.”
J.D. Gibbs, son of owner Joe Gibbs and president of the team, said JGR takes full responsibility for the actions of its employees.
“Let me just say that, first and foremost, that that was a really poor, foolish decision on the part of our key guys there at JGR,” Gibbs said. “I want to apologize to NASCAR, to our partners, to Toyota guys. A couple guys chose to make a decision there that really impacts all of us.”
Jack Roush, co-owner of Roush-Fenway Racing, which fields Fords in the Nationwide Series, called the Gibbs team’s actions “extremely detrimental to stock car racing.
“NASCAR will figure out what they should,” Roush said. “If they’re going to make decisions based on parity, after they’ve given (Toyota) what they’ve given them with regard to parameters on their engine, based on flawed data that a team or the manufacturer, one of the other, had kited or shaved, that certainly is detrimental to my interests.”
[Editor's Note: NASCAR will indeed come down hard on JGR for the most blatant attempt at cheating since Waltrip Racing's Daytona fuel manifold incident, but many in NASCAR circles say the penalties will be much more severe. Don't be surprised if JGR's Nationwide entries are suspended from competition for multiple races in addition to heavy fines and heavy point deductions]
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IF THEY CHEATED THEY DESERVE A PENALTY, WHATS FAIR FOR ONE IS FAIR FOR ALL
I just left the media room and this is one of the worst infractions ever seen in NASCAR. Buddy Baker said the fines and suspensions are going to be the biggest in the history of NASCAR and will tarnish the Gibbs organization and Toyota and the drivers for a long time.
Plus the word from Tony is that the magnets had to be placed there before the race because the officials walked along with the cars after the race to the chassis dyno. they were clearly trying to hide the HP that the Toyotas have and Tony even said let the chips fall where they fall. Quote “I had nothing to do with it”
Now the first run on the dyno the car of Vickers, Logano, and Stewart were close when it came to HP but when they took the magnets out they were way over in HP. they have been cheating for a long time and should have there wins taken away from them for the season and all crew chiefs throw out of the garage for the rest of the season.
Maybe these magnetic shims were a safety and cost saving device.
Safety device as in it doesn’t let the throttle get wide open, so if it sticks it won’t be stuck wide open.
Cost saving device because it won’t let you get the RPMs up into the “no-zone” as much since you would not be running full throttle.
I’m not really trying to defend them, just playing devils advocate.
Fisha695 wrote:
FISHA< why even bother coming up with this crap, JD GIBBS admitted in a press conference that someone did that to the cars and will take the penalities and will fire the people who did this so why are you even taking like they didnt cheat, everyone knows they cheated and they have admitted it
ENGLISHMAN (HOWIE)
GET OVER IT, THIS IS THE FIRST RACE THAT THEY HAVE DONE SOMETHING LIKE THIS. IM NOT DENYING THEY WERE OR WERE NOT CHEATING EITHER WAY, BEFORE TODAY THEY HAD NOT BEEN CAUGHT CHEATING ALL THEY WERE GUILTY OF WAS CREATING MORE HORSEPOWER, WHICH I REMIND IS NO OUTSIDE OF THE RULES. IF THEY WERE CHEATING TODAY THEN YES THEY NEED TO BE PENALIZED.
ENGLISHMAN (HOWIE)
WHEN YOU RECALL THERE IS ONE PERSON WHO HAS A PERSONAL VENDETTA AGAINST TOYOTA AND THAT WAS ROUSH, IT SEEMS TO ME HE GOT SOMEONE IN MWR AND NOW HE HAS GOT SOMEONE IN JGR TO WORK FOR HIM. IF THIS IS A SINGLE INDIVIDUAL THEN YES THEY NEED TO BE BANNED BUT NOT THE TEAM NOR THE DRIVER
You really are pretty stupid arent you? this is the first race they got caught. and as far as getting over it, i think you should get over it because it has not even begun yet. Toyotas name has damaged the sport again just like the Daytona incident with Michael. I hope Brad and Robin take all the points away and sanction Toyota for the rest of the season. they are damaging this sport and the team owners will not put up with this again
ENGLISHMAN
LOL LOL LOL LOL WHAT A JOKE, SINCE TOYOTA HAS DAMAGED THE SPORT MAYBE YOU SHOULD TELL TOYOTA HOW YOU FEEL, AND NOT ACCEPT THERE MONEY ANYMORE. BETTER YET ILL GIVE THEM YOUR NUMBER AND TELL THEM HOW YOU FEEL ABOUT THEM CAUSE IM SURE THEY WOULDNT WANT A BIASED PERSON TAKIN THERE PICS
As much as I hate hate hate to say it
Looks like Roush was right about Toyota
And maybe this is why Tony was encouraged to
Leave JGR.
Howie, that is some exceptional insight
Toyota are just lucky they didn’t get caught with this
In the cup series
Was vickers car involved in the magnet scandal or is
It just Gibbs?
Howie- you said that vickers and JGR were close in HP before the magnets were removed but that JGR were far above without the magnets. Don’t they both get their engines from TDR?
ROWDY BUSH wrote:
well that fine with me and them because the whole day I was accusing them of cheating and they dont have a problem with it. as a matter of fact I was doing it right in front of the fans so if you think you have something to hurt me you better come up with something better than that because Im one of the best in the business and everyone knows it.
TheTru7h wrote:
no JGR build there motors in house.
THETRUTH
I know you are always unbiased and and offer a good insight, but lets think about this everything howie said is pure speculation. Also if toyota had been doing this in either series they would have been caught way before now, so they or a person tried something questionable and they got caught, same as mwr last year, same as roush this year with edwards and the oil lid, this is what teamns do
ROWDY BUSH wrote:
NONE OF THIS IS SPECTULATION, THIS IS ALL FACT. your crap is nothing but spectulation. as far as them not getting caught until now the bottom of a gas pedal does not draw alot of attention.but it will now.
ENGLISHMAN
As far as you being one of the best, lol lol lol ok if you were a professional you would not laugh in the face of your customers fans. If you were a man, you would go tell toyota they were cheaters and not there fans, the fans have nothing to do with this so dont tell them, tell the toyota reps. thats sounds like “JOHNNY ONE TRUCK PHOTOGRAPHY” lets face it, I know who you are, and you a joke as is the comments you make, you hear the same thing everyone else hears, you just make a bigger deal about it. Someone cheated oh no this is new to out sport what do we do
Good point Rowdy:
Toyota I doubt would try such a device in the Cup series,
But the lack of importance of the Nationwide series to the organization
Prompted the team to be cheeky and circumvent Nascars dyno- which is undoubtebly the most outlandish violation I have heard of since Smokey Yunion ran a turbocharger off the fly wheel of his car back in the day.
JGR deserve the punishment they are getting for this infraction. However, I believe it was a one-off. It was a cheeky move by some JGR crew member done as a result of the last dyno test that brought about Nascar cutting down their HP.
ROWDY BUSH wrote:
well lets see there were 6 official Toyota people there all day with me and like I said they were laughing right along with me. and as far as you knowing who I am anyone can make a call and find out who I am. I have been in this sport along time and my years taking shots of Sr, have made me just as famous as Sam Bass with over a half million prints of him sold as every NASCAR weekend. Im not some jerk like you who cant even use their real name
I’m still struggling to grasp that such a powerful organization
That is built off of Christian principles, as stated by Joe Gibbs, would do
Such a detrimental thing.
TheTru7h wrote:
I dont think Joe had any knowedge of any of this but I dont put anything past JD, I never liked that guy and alot of other people feel the same way as I do. You can bet at 8am tomorrow morning heads are going to roll at JGR. I would not want to be sitting at that big Cherrywood table with Joe at the other end knowing I was the guy or guys that did this
Maybe it was a TRD part…. No not that TRD the other one, Triad Racing Development…. they make Pedal assemblies for NASCAR teams…. l0l
Fisha695 wrote:
FISHA< what is wrong with you, they got caught their is no excuse for it, what they did was illegal and thats that. this has rocked the NASCAR nation and everyone involved. this is not even 24 hours old and it is the biggest scandal in NASCAR history.
Maybe it’s because I’m a fan of various types of racing besides stock car racing, and maybe it’s because it’s really not that big of a scandal.
NASCAR created the Toyota HP problem themselves when Toyota came into the sport and NASCAR said here is a Chevy, Dodge, and Ford engine make one that can compete with them. Toyota did, and it took Mark Conquist to fine tune that engine to be within the rules and still make more HP.
Heck I’ve seen a lot worse done to cars in NASCAR “scandal” wise then an extra large pedal stop. And really all teams need to do if they have an illegal engine is DW it right after the finish and then NASCAR would have no engine to test…. Or NASCAR could Blow up the engines themselves like they did to Ernie Irvin’s back in the day.
im not shocked at all. It was obvious something was going on and most the time its easiest to find out what by looking for what is doing the covering up. I REALLLY wish they found this on the 18 car in cup though. Tha would have made my day
Fisha695 wrote:
you cant blow the motors up due to the MSD box and rev limiters built in to the box.
Pull the Chip out, Teams have done it before, and it’s real easy to blow a motor up no matter what rev-limiter you have in it by simple shifting to the “wrong” gear.
no the rev limiter was designed for missing a gear, that is the purpose of it you can miss a gear and that is when you get up on the chip.all it does is eliminate spark to certain cylinders.
ROWDY BUSH wrote:
FIRST OF ALL OF SOME JERK WHO CANT USE THERE REAL NAME, YOU ARENT USING YOUR NAME EITHER SO THINK ABOUT THAT,
SECONDLY, SO YOUR TELLING ME YOU WERE WITH 6 TOYOTA OFFICIALS LAUGHING AT THEM AND TELLING THEM THEY WERE CHEATERS AND THEY WERE LAUGHING ALONG WITH YOU, I DONT SEE THAT HAPPENING, WHY WOULD TOYOTA OFFICIALS LAUGH AT A JOKE ABOUT THEM CHEATING SOME PHOTOGRAPHERIS TALKING ABOUT
GET OVER YOURSELF, YOU THINK CAUSE YOU TOOK A FW POLAROIDS OF SR, YOU KNOW EVERYTHING LIKE WHATS GOING TO HAPPEN AT JGR AND HOW THE FINES ARE GOING BE, LIKE SOMEONE TOLD YOU. LETS FACE IT, NOTHING HAS HAPPENED YET AND LIKE I SAID EARLIER ANY THING YOU SAY IS SPECULATION OF WHAT WILL HAPPEN.
As for head going to roll at JGR, Im sure the same thing was said after the “scandal” last year guess what all the same people are still there. Lets face we will never know the real story, and they are going to sugar coat it the best they can.
If they had been cheating the whole time they would have been caught then also. I knew this
was going to blow up into some crap. I agree that they should have fines for cheating but
I am tired of people acting like they are the only ones that do it. Hello Roush was caught this
year, like Junior Johnson said in an interview earlier in the year. Everyone does it.
Is our little Rowdy crying? Go to mommy Rowdy, you are such a baby and a punk. Every time I come on here I have to read your posts and you make me want to throw up. I bet you have never been to a race in your life. you are the most unintelligent person that is on here. You cant stand it when other people know more than you, and I know that when Howie says something is is usually true and from a good source. I have met him and I have been around the people at Toyota he is with. they are one big happy family and yes they cut up on Toyota all the time in front of the fans.
OH AND LEARN HOW TO SPELL!!!
Seriously, as Howie said this is without a doubt one of the biggest
and most blatant violations of NASCAR rules in the last 10 years
easily.
To try and cheat in a race is one thing. But to try and cheat a NASCAR test? Rediculously dumb.
And teresa, you dont make yourself sound any more intelligent with the ratteling on you just posted.
This forum is about JGR and its Nationwide cars being busted big time for cheating,
not your personal vendetta against other members of this forum.
(You dont have to agree with others, just be respectful to them as they are entitled to their opinion as well, however wrong it may be)
I agree, this is huge and it will rock the Nationwide Series and it will make getting sponsorship even harder for teams now because no one wants to pour money into a series that they might not be able to win in because of a disadvantage by another team or manufacturer. I think that the way JGR operates that by now which it is 9am that they know who it is and they are hopefully out the door.
I meant advantage not disadvantage
So because of 1 persons bad judgement, your going to throw everyonbe under the bus. I was told 1 person is at fault for this. He tried to get the engine tunner to mess with the revlimiter but he said no. The engine tuner reported this to the crew chief. Then this one person put the magnet on the back of the throttle. this is busch mind you, not in cup. And Gibbs is a christian run company, and his employes do come first. This employee should be fired. And as for Tony saying what he said, he isn’t a driver anymore hes a “car owner”.
Agreed teresa, however I hope they fire the right person
Remember in the MWR ‘Jet Fuel’ scandal, crew chief David Hyder
was basically a scapegoat for the organization..
Kyle fan wrote:
I dont know where you would get this that 1 person is involved because no one was saying anything and the rev limiter has nothing to do with none of this. The cars in question had run the race and the MSD boxes dont control HP they control spark to the plugs. and as far as Tony not being a driver anymore, do you even watch NASCAR ? he is a driver and when he goes to SHR he will be a driver there.
I didn’t say it was the msd did I. I’m telling you what I was told by a close friend who happens to know people. How do you know it wasn’t 1 person who did this? Were you there? Tony took all this as an owner not a driver. Howie you think you know everything, but all you do is force your opinion on everyone. You think your the only person who knows people? Remember there are a lot of people in racing.
Lets not all forget when Roush got caught cheating and Carl Edwards was docked his 10 points. And shall we bring up Hendrick, when there cars wouldnt fit the templets?
Do you not understand sarcasm Howie.
Rowdy what you Fail to think about is the fact that it was not just as easy as grabing a magnet from the local hardware store and putting it in there, it would have to be the proper thickness to drop the RPM’s down to were the horse power was that of the other toyota and in the new specs. This means it would have had to be figured and tested with the motor in the car and everything setup as if it was for the NASCAR test. If the magnet was to thin they would of still got more RPM’s and shown more Horse power, if it was to thick they would have shown less horse power and raised questions from NASCAR. So IMHO
this is something that several people including the drivers had to know about (you cant tell me the drivers didn’t notice the lower RPM’s) and Maybe the Drivers even put them in place on the cool down lap and they were not there during the race!!! Eather way it was a ettempt to cheet on NASCAR’s horsepower test and have more power during the upcoming races. This is a VERY serious infraction and as Howie said may be the worst in NASCAR’s History, THere is no Excuse or in your case Rowdy, Stupid remark, that can change this Fact!!!
BTW Rowdy only 10 year olds type in all caps.
Kyle fan wrote:
Sarcasm and much of what your trying to say it appears
They dood it, Now they’re gonna get a MAJOR whooping!
Kyle fan wrote:
Yes I am there everyday and i do get everything first hand. I don’t think you know but the garage area is a very small place and we our usually there when something happens. thats what we get paid to do. Nothing gets done on any car by anyone without other people knowing about it especially to 2 cars at once. We knew that NASCAR noticed a crew member with his head in the 20 car and he said he was looking for a pair of gloves and that NASCAR thought something was going on but that crew member couldn’t have done both cars and if they did it was under Dave Rogers orders.
ROWDY BUSH wrote:
Maybe you should GET OVER IT,you sit on here and talk your garbage on how good they are and yet they just got caught red handed.just because they didn’t get caught till now does not mean they were not cheating the whole year.
Toyota shouldn’t even be in the sport because the motor they use is strictly built for racing and can not be bought in a production car. everyone else’s motor can be bought in a production car.
Kyle fan wrote:
)
I don’t think of this as one persons bad judgement because nothing gets done to these cars by a single individual unless it is the crew chief.this was carefully planned out because both cars were involved.
The throttle stops used on these cars are threaded so that they can be adjusted. the use of a 1/4 inch magnet could take as much as 10-12 hp away from these cars.they were trying to hide the extra hp.
teresa88fan wrote:
Your right, people remember things like this and thats why its important for the Gibbs organization to fire all those involved even if it is the crew chiefs.and I think NASCAR will go easier on them if they do that. Joe Gibbs will get to the bottom of this but his organization is tarnished now along with all the wins they got this year.
Wow stop the personal attacks.
I told you so isn’t really a mature thing to say.
People are entitled to their opinion and have their opinions without
people combating those opionions just because they believe something different.
Someone made an interesting comment above regarding toyotas motor.
Every other manufacter (Chevy, Ford, Dodge) make it available the necessary components to build
a cup engine if you wanted. However Toyota doesnt do this, showing just how closed loop they erally are
in regards to Motorsports operations
I can’t remember a violation like this one before….trying to hide how strong your engine is!! I have heard of drivers blowing up engines and things like that. The magnet trick is new for me….
Well, I’ve read everyone’s comments (and laughed at some of them!) and it seems to me that we’re leaving out something very important; the drivers’ involvement.
Are any of us really foolish enough to believe that the magnets - which were put there before the cars rolled out and were there for post-race inspection - were not removed for the race? When we talk about involvement and blame this is not one person’s bad judgment rather we are looking at at the very least two drivers, two crew and/or car chiefs, the engine shop … And if this worked in the nationwide series you think that they would not try the same in Sprint? If we’re smart enough to consider it I am more than certain that NASCAR is, even though penalties cannot cross over.
I am a Tony Stewart fan, and I am sorry to see that he will be leaving JGR under the dark cloud of a cheating scandal, but we should all remember one thing; the closer NASCAR tightens the rules the more it becomes a game to see who can cheat without getting caught. Frankly I found this ‘incident’ quite inventive and I cannot help but wonder how long they could have gotten away with it.
That is if the Officials were not tipped off ….