JGR Nationwide teams get mere slap on the wrist for dyno cheating
Quote selected text Published August 20th, 2008 in NASCAR News
NASCAR announced that the #18 and #20 teams in the Nationwide Series have been penalized due to rule violations discovered by NASCAR inspectors prior to post-race testing on the chassis dynamometer Aug. 16 at Michigan International Speedway.
Both the #18 and # 20 cars were found to be in violation of Sections 12-4-A (actions detrimental to stock car racing); 8-9 (competitive analysis - from time to time, NASCAR may determine, in the interest of competition, that it is necessary or appropriate to undertake an analysis of the performance capabilities of a car, car part, component or equipment.
The Competitor shall take whatever steps are requested by NASCAR Officials for this purpose. NASCAR also has the right to seal or impound cars, car parts, components and/or equipment for this purpose); 12-4-Q (1): (car, car parts, components and/or equipment used that do not conform to NASCAR rules, detailed in Section 20A of the 2008 NASCAR Rule Book, or has not been approved by NASCAR prior to the event, or is not required for the normal functional operation of the race car, or has been altered to detract from or compromise its integrity or effectiveness, whether operational or not); 12-4-K: (when NASCAR Officials mandate inspection during the Event, if any car, car parts, components, and/or equipment which have been used in the Event are taken from the racing premises without permission of a NASCAR Official, or are tampered with by any member of the team or anyone associated with the team: Magnetic spacer attached under the gas pedal with the intent of compromising the chassis dynamometer test).
Both of the drivers - Joey Logano of the #18 and Tony Stewart of the #20 - have been penalized with the loss of 150 championship driver points and placed on NASCAR probation until Dec. 31, 2008. Joe Gibbs, owner of both of the cars, has likewise been penalized 150 championship owner points for each of those entries.
Both crew chiefs - Jason Ratcliff of the #18 and Dave Rogers of the #20 - have been fined $50,000 and indefinitely suspended from NASCAR.
From the No. 18 team, car chief Dorian Thorsen; engine tuner Michael Johnson; and crew member Toby Bigelow have been placed on indefinite suspension from NASCAR. From the #20 team, car chief Richard Bray and engine tuner Dan Bajek have been indefinitely suspended from NASCAR.
In addition, the entire # 18 and No. 20 Nationwide Series teams have been placed on NASCAR probation until Dec. 31, 2008.
[NASCAR]
Bookmark to:
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Seems like more than a slap on the wrist to me!
Well im not sure why the drivers were penalized. I did find it interesting one crew member was suspended, maybe he was the one who did it, which im sure he was told to do. Like I said before if they cheated then they need to be penalized and I know there are going to be arguments over whether it was enough of a penalty or not. I dont think the investigation should be done here I think nascar or gibbs should investigate further, to see when where what and how was responsible for this.
Punishing the drivers seems futile, since they were probably out of the loop on this one.
However, the teams did not receive anywhere near what they should have in penalties. How about stipping the teams of all the owners points and sitting out the next 5 races, that would send a signal that any level of cheating will not be tolerated.
I like DW’s idea of making the teams keep the magnets on the pedals for the rest of the year.
The driver points don’t matter, but they should have been penalized more than the standard 150 owners points. I also agree with DW that they should have to keep the magnets on for the rest of the year.
Jeff wrote:
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
that would fix the problem!
This is more then a slap on the rist , probally not svere enough, The question if there cars have that much more horsepower what are they goin to do about that, If they have the extra horsepower then they should be stripped of all the wins they have piled up with all the drivers
As far as Nationwide penalties, I think this is much more than a slap on the wrist, but I agree it’s not very harsh for two cars and drivers that aren’t in the championship hunt. The 150 point owner’s penalty will still leave the #20 168 points over the #2 in owner’s points, so that hurt, but it only halved their lead.
There should have been gigantic monetary fines along with the suspensions and point reductions. All it mentions is fining the chiefs $50k, which is good, but Gibbs himself should have been hammered hard in the wallet on this one.
BTW, the article on NASCAR.com says that Gibbs suspended the two crew chiefs for the rest of the ‘08 season, and it had this quote from Joe:
“We had come to the conclusion that we would add to any NASCAR imposed penalties with the minimum being suspension for the remainder of the season for those involved, including our two Nationwide Series crew chiefs. There will also be an additional monetary fine beyond the amount announced by NASCAR earlier today, which will be the responsibility of those involved.”
Go Coach Gibbs! Nice to see someone taking responsibility for their team’s poor decisions and hammering the hell out of them, above and beyond what NASCAR is doing!
All Wins need to Be Taken AWAY, for the YEAR,. That Would STOP the Cheating !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I agree with the penalty, since it is the Nationwide series. However, I still think something is going on in Cup with the 18. I’m not saying Gibbs knows about it anymore than he knew about this. There is no way it’s Kyle winning all those races. You don’t go from being good to being great overnight. He is a good, maybe very good racer, however, he is not a Stewart or Gordon. He has been with great teams his entire career and has been good, and thats all. Now all of a sudden he’s better than any other driver. No way. Nascar just hasn’t caught them yet.
I told you this would me big. Do you think that taking 7 members of a team and telling them that they can not come to a NASCAR race is not big! We are talking about 2 crew chiefs and 2 car chiefs. Dave Rogers gets paid 150,000. a year and he is at the shop and they could all lose their jobs. let me tell you this is big and not over either.
there is something called a break out year carl
Ryan Newman had his in 2003 and didn’t necessarily mean
He would maintain that performance for years to come
So there’s no reason to assume Kyle will either
TheTru7h wrote:
???
Mere slap on the wrist? What type of crack are you smoking?
Jason Ratcliff and Dave Rogers have been sent home by JGR today. This really puts JGR in a bind for Joey Logano since he has gelled with Dave. Its a shame this had to tarnish Joey and Tonys career like it will. They are 2 innocent bystanders in this scandal. the story remains the same throughout the garage today that the NASCAR official did notice the crew member leaning in the 18 car when waiting for the test and asked him what he was doing and said he was looking for a pair of gloves, and that’s when the official told another official to look inside the cockpit of the 20 car which was on the dyno at the time for anything suspicious and that’s when they found the 1/4 magnets. The word is NASCAR does not want the 7 members of JGR to ever be in the garage area again but said they would review the cases on an individual basis but it does not look like it will be for along time.
As a JGR fan I only have a problem with Joey and Tony being on probation. I don’t for one minute
think they knew about this. Also someone previously said that the points don’t matter, but
the 20 car is in the lead in the ownership points.
Well
Personally I dont think the investigation, should stop here I think either Gibbs or Nascar should continue to investigate until they get the bottom line truth on who is responsible. If you remember they did the same to MWR’s people and now they are back and we never heard anymore about what, or how Mikeys issue happened and who was responsible and all the same people are back. I think who ever was responsible should be held more responsible then others. This is definatley a blackeye on the gibbs organization, hopefully these irresponsible act wont or havent carried over to the cup side, that would be bad for kyles good year and tonys last year at the gibbs team. I also dont beleive its fair to penalize the drivers all they do is drive, but they did nothing that can be done about it now, I also think the owner point should have been far more, although remote they could still come back from that deficit, maybe something a little more insurmountable would send a message to all teams. With that said as a team owner I dont know how they are expected to keep an eye on all team members at all times, its like having a bunch of kids. Unfortunately for the drivers and other people not involved the actions of a few fools has ruined the hard work of many……..
Their is nothing more to investigate, They have the 7 people who were involved in this and they are home. They are not getting fired but they cant come to the track. in the past the teams would pay any fines that NASCAR would hand down but in this case the crew chiefs have to pay the fines out of their own pockets and JGR are going to fine them too. They cant come to the track until NASCAR says its OK to come back but we are talking at least till next season but probadly from the word around here it will probadly be longer. the whole thing is that NASCAR took 15 HP from them and they got it back last week and didnt want them to see it on the dyno and got caught.
Well it was no secret they had the horsepower back, all I heard last week on sirius was toyota reps stating that they did what nascar asked them to, with bumping down the horsepower but they found the horsepower somewhere else. Which is why I think they should investigate more, to see if this goes outside of gibbs, cause it is clearly obvious toyota knew about something with the bold statements they were making last week. I still like gibbs adn all the drivers I would just like to know, who had this idea and then the others who acted on it. I thinks its obvious we have found the people who have acted on it, I would like to know whos idea it was, maybe this wasnt an internal idea, possibly someone outside of gibbs mainly toyota had the idea. Lets face the 2 biggest scandals in the last 2 years, have one common point and that is toyota. Personally I like toyota but if they are cheating then they need to be dealt with accordingly. I just dont think all who is responsible have been caught yet.
It was all the crew chiefs ideaand that is all of it. they thought they would pull a fast one on NASCAR and didnt realize that they would get caught like they did. their lost.
Howie Motorsports Photography wrote:
I think what they were trying to say is that Newman had 8 (if i am wrong please correct me) his rookie year. Its not unheard of for that many wins, but thats not to say that Kyle will continue to have this success…look at Newman now.
So is there any word on how long they have been doing this, or was this just in response to nascars demand at them to lower horsepower?????????????
SADDLERCHICK
KB is having the majority of his success in the cup series. Kyle wasnt the only one to have succes in that car eith smoke, logano and i think even hamlin all won in that car so lets stay away from the kyle bashing
Kylw wrote:
First of all, I don’t smoke crack.
Secondly, yes…it’s a slap on the wrist.
This crap has no place in racing and it’s high time NASCAR grow a set and really send a message. (but of course…they’re gutless and they won’t) Again, it’s a pansy ‘you-know-what’ gutless move by NASCAR. They wont stand up to the people who pull this crap year in and year out for fear of pissing off a manufacturer or team. Look how long they took Tony’s BS for example? In Formula 1, you pull stunts like this, and you’re lucky to even have a team left when they are through with you.
As the editor of this site, I can no longer spend my time SOLELY supporting a sport that continues to insult the fans on so may levels. As many of you on here know, I stay silent in the background and try to stay impartial to the discussions on here but I have had enough. This is where I personally draw the line.
I hadn’t planned on announcing anything yet but I’ve changed my mind. AutoRacingSport.com will be changing in a fairly big way in about a week. Many of you I think will like the change. Many of you will not. But this site will return to coverage of ALL motorsports once again, and have a few wrinkles where the readers (you guys) will have more interaction on what gets posted.
That’s all for now, except to say France and company: kiss my ass!
Wow Ken, you’re pretty bent outta shape on this huh? I cant say i dont disagree with you to be honest. Does that mean youll have F1 Indy, drags, etc….?
Kenneth I love you!
I’ve been missing my dose of F1 and
Tried to fit into the idiotic politics of Nascar and have
Struggled significantly.
NASCAR doesn’t seem to take cheating seriously at all
In f1 entire sums of points were taken and 100m fine
For a violation involving a few hundred pages of documents
However JGR made fools of NASCAR by trying to go around the
Dyno and because they need toyotas sponsor money and what they
Bring to the sport, they are scared to come down on them.
I agree with Kenneth totally rediculous and I have been relatively
Tired of it for a while.
Bring on the real racing Kenneth- governed by organizations with backbones
And sadlerchick picked up on what I was saying, sorry if it as unclear as I just quickly crafted a response on my phone comparing 2003 Newman with 2008 busch
Jom wrote:
Yes and yes.
TheTru7h wrote:
My sentiments exactly.
I have been tossing around this idea for some time. Don’t get me wrong, I am still a big NASCAR fan. But truth be told, I was brought up on open wheel and was an open wheel fan first. I lived and died IndyCar in its heyday. We all know what happened next. Very disillusioning to say the least.
I see some similar things happening with NASCAR in certain respects.
And I’ll be very frank with all of you. I have have been treated like crap from NASCAR for quite a long time and by some of its teams when they don’t like what I post. And so I’m over it. They only want the good stuff to get out and I’m sorry, my world doesn’t work like that. So they refused me any access. They wont even send PR to me anymore. If they want to be like that, so can I.
I think Brian France has been one of THE worst things EVER to happen to NASCAR. There, I said it. This is my opinion and now it’s out there. Those of you who disagree, that’s cool. I respect people’s opinion. That’s why I try my best to keep it respectful here.
I just felt it’s time to promote all racing (or as much as I can) and let you people decide what should get top billing on AutoRacingSport.com. And soon it will encompass motorsports as a whole and all of you can decide what to interact with and promote.
And since I’m on my soapbox I want to say something regarding JGR (again, my opinion): I don’t think Joe or JD are the saints they make themselves out to be. I’ll just leave it at that. All these teams cheat on a daily basis and NASCAR lets them get away with it and gives ‘passes’ when someone needs to run better. That, I personally know to be true. They once in awhile have to ‘clamp down’ to make a statement. Sorry, but these penalties announced today are pathetic. Why? Because it won’t change a damn thing. That’s not racing to me.
That’s not what I was brought up on.
Nascar needs toyota in case the big 3 go under
Therefore they tread very carefully with reprimanding
Them as to keep them appeased.
This method of thinking is evident in many facets of how
NASCAR operated. One of the most prominabt examples of this
Was Nascar allowing Jimmy Spencers team to run an illegal engine in 1994 just to keep Mcdonalds involved in NASCAR.
It’s no matter however.
I’ll turn it in every other day or so, maybe read a few articles about it.
However the unified open wheel revolution bodes very well
For people who have been turned off my the idiotic and irregular policies
Of NASCAR.
Cheers and I look forward to much more f1 and Indycar on ARS
I just wish if we knew if they had been doing this all season. If they were showing the extra HP with these spacers under the pedal all year, then think how much HP advantage that these cars have really had all season long. This would explain how the JGR cars were so dominant.
The sad thing is that people will always speculate whether they have been doing this all season now that it is clear they are cheaters. Whether they have or have not been once they got caught nobody will believe that they haven’t.
It also points a finger at Kyle in the 18 car in Cup series, he has been so dominant all year. If these 2 cars were cheating then I would think that it makes that one look awfully suspicious.
KENNETH
Thank god, A few weeks ago I was praying you would have some Knoxeville nationals on here, but i understood nascar was the primary focus. I couldnt agree more with what you said about France he is a spoiled rotten baby who never had to work for anything and got handed a position, and has made nascar his playground. He wants to penalize drivers for drugs and alcohol and then his fat a$$ goes gets drunk and has accidents on the way, reminds me of rush talking trash about drug addicts then getting busted for being an addict hmself. Personally I love your idea to make your site more open the nascar, after all the open wheel and latemodel and usac and so on and so on would appreciate the site far more the nascar and brian frances b.s. so on live A.R.S which isnt N.R.S. lets include all auto’s
as for F1 look at what happened to alonso when he cheated, he is now in a renault, i hope to god ferrari doesnt take him next year. Hopefully we will see kimi win back to back championships
Like most of you I have followed this situation closely since the announcement. I have read reported and posted comments (some of y’all crack me up!) and I cannot help but throw in a few comments and opinions …
First, while the penalties may appear negligible, may I point out that JGR now has penalties on the books. Owner points have been taken away. Driver points have been taken away. Multiple crewpersons have been suspended. Drivers are on probation. For the next few years when there is a cheating scandal in NASCAR, whether it be Sprint or Nationwide, who do you think it will be compared to? “Yes, folks, team ABC was nailed by NASCAR. Hey, D.W., remember that JGR fiasco a few years back …?”
While we are on the drivers my opinion is that the penalties are fitting from two aspects; one, that it is completely inconceivable that these little magnets that were placed to stop the gas pedal were left during the race. You will never convince me. These were ‘removable’ gadgets; if the teams were using them as their fix for lowering the horsepower well, then, weld ‘em. Make them permanent. I’m sure the sanctioning body would not have minded. The second reason behind my agreeing with the driver penalties is - if taking the scenario that the drivers did not know about the magnets as factual - these are professional drivers, highly paid, at the top of their sport, who can feel the slightest rhythm change in their cars. They did not notice a difference in power? That the gas pedal did not go down all the way? We spectators may not notice such a tiny discrepancy but these guys would.
I’m also intrigued by those who are impressed that JGR, in an in-house move, suspended the two crew chiefs. I admit I am astonished in the lack of reasoning that clearly points out that those two guys are done for the rest of the season as it is, care of NASCAR. They were already suspended. Done. Finito. Have a nice vacation. See ya next year. Don’t forget to write. What JGR did was pull a public relations move that Michael Vick’s manager could only dream of; somehow they made NASCAR’s penalties look trifle compared to Papa Joe reclaiming his good name and taking out the trash.
As far as Kyle Bush goes, I’m not a fan. The kid can drive - but he also relies on wrecking other drivers needlessly. Anyone remember him taking out Benson on the final lap of the truck race that Bush had no chance of winning? He has the potential of becoming a top rated driver once he matures and concentrates on improving both driving and interviewing skills. Come on, man, at least congratulate your own brother on a win!
For those who see conspiracy between the Nationwide and Sprint lines … Your mama didn’t raise no fool. No one with enough braincells to play Solitare could conceive that if JGR owns so many teams, and they all hang out together, and the drivers run different cars across the series lines, that they aren’t going to talk. in-friggin’-conceivable. “Hey, we’re struggling a bit, what are you doing that I’m not?” “Gee, if this works here I wonder if it would work in the Cup car.” “Man, you’ll never guess what we came up with!”
All in all it will be interesting to watch this all unfold this weekend.
… And for the comments out there about MWR’s little venture at Daytona the other year - Mikey will still comment on it, albeit rarely, and still takes responsibility for it.
Hate to said it, but all the top teams cheat or at least get caught creating.
HMS
RCR
DEI
ROUSH
Haas CNC
Penske
MWR
JGR got caught and now they have to pay the piper, NASCAR has been way too easy on the teams and crews.
Ask Junior Johnson about cheating in the old days
I would agree Fisha however those teams cheated to GAIN a competitive advantage
Not to hide one from NASCAR and make fools of the sanctioning body.
Also it seems rather stupid to fine Logano and Stewart 150 points when neither of them is running the full scheadule anyway>
Rowdy, you need not worry.
Alonso will be at Honda for 2009 or Renault.
I dont understand why.
If his pain issue with the team is performance, why
would he move to a team that is in last place in
constructors and probably won’t make the HUGE leap forward they are hoping for with the introduction of KERS
Fornax wrote:
I still am impressed, because NASCAR’s spineless ‘indefinite’ suspension could mean 2 years or 2 races. There’s absolutely nothing guaranteeing (or suggesting, for that matter) they were done for the season. Other habitual cheaters that have been caught flagrantly cheating got a 6 race vacation. Gibbs made sure that the suspension runs at least through the final 10 races of this year.
And regardless of what anyone says, if you were in Joe’s position and NASCAR left the door wide open like that, you’d do the same thing! When was the last time you saw someone accept 100% responsibility, take their lumps, and move on? Everyone appeals and whines and tries to get their suspensions shortened, points fines reduced, etc. Not only did Gibbs not do that, but he went above and beyond NASCAR’s penalties to let his team know this is not how JGR does business.
The indefinate suspension doesn’t mean they would be out the rest of the year. When MWR had
the additive issue at Daytona the same punishment was given to his crew chief but he was back
after around 6-10 weeks.
TheTru7h wrote:
Are you sure it wasn’t to gain a competitive advantage? I look at it as them trying to gain back the competitive advantage that NASCAR had originally given them. (remember NASCAR gave Toyota an engine from each manufacture and said go make yours)
They had one, it got taken away, they were trying to get it back.
No they gAined it back and tried to hide
The fact. Either way it was wrong