JGR to face huge penalties from NASCAR for cheating at dyno test
107 Comments Quote selected text Published August 17th, 2008 in NASCAR News
The No. 18 and No. 20 Joe Gibbs Racing teams in the Nationwide Series will likely face big penalties after efforts to alter the results of a chassis dyno test.
NASCAR inspectors, preparing to do tests on horsepower numbers following Saturday’s Nationwide race at Michigan International Speedway, found magnets under the gas pedals on the two Gibbs Toyotas.
Tony Stewart, making his last Nationwide start for the Gibbs team, finished third in the No. 20, and 18-year-old rookie Joey Logano was seventh in the No. 18. The race was won by Carl Edwards in a Ford.
Toyota has won 15 of 25 races this season in Nationwide, and all but one came in a Camry fielded by Gibbs. The exception was JGR driver Kyle Busch’s victory at Charlotte in May in a car fielded by Braun Racing.
In the face of such domination, last month NASCAR ordered the Toyota Nationwide teams to use a smaller spacer to cut about 15 horsepower in their motors.
The incident Saturday was apparently an effort to keep the current numbers from looking too strong in the latest test.
“In our post-race inspection—yesterday was the day we were going to chassis dyno cars—our inspectors discovered some shims that were placed on the gas pedal stop,” Robin Pemberton, vice president of competition for NASCAR, said Sunday. “It was magnets that were about a quarter-inch thick that prevented the accelerator from going 100 percent wide open.
“The intention was to manipulate the numbers that we get when we get our information and data off the dyno.”
Pemberton said NASCAR officials will meet Monday and Tuesday to determine what penalties will be handed out.
“I anticipate that we haven’t seen the end of it yet,” Pemberton said when asked if the penalties were likely to be severe. “We historically don’t make our decisions within a 24-hour period. It takes time to get everybody in a group and talk about it.”
J.D. Gibbs, son of owner Joe Gibbs and president of the team, said JGR takes full responsibility for the actions of its employees.
“Let me just say that, first and foremost, that that was a really poor, foolish decision on the part of our key guys there at JGR,” Gibbs said. “I want to apologize to NASCAR, to our partners, to Toyota guys. A couple guys chose to make a decision there that really impacts all of us.”
Jack Roush, co-owner of Roush-Fenway Racing, which fields Fords in the Nationwide Series, called the Gibbs team’s actions “extremely detrimental to stock car racing.
“NASCAR will figure out what they should,” Roush said. “If they’re going to make decisions based on parity, after they’ve given (Toyota) what they’ve given them with regard to parameters on their engine, based on flawed data that a team or the manufacturer, one of the other, had kited or shaved, that certainly is detrimental to my interests.”
[Editor's Note: NASCAR will indeed come down hard on JGR for the most blatant attempt at cheating since Waltrip Racing's Daytona fuel manifold incident, but many in NASCAR circles say the penalties will be much more severe. Don't be surprised if JGR's Nationwide entries are suspended from competition for multiple races in addition to heavy fines and heavy point deductions]
IF THEY CHEATED THEY DESERVE A PENALTY, WHATS FAIR FOR ONE IS FAIR FOR ALL
I just left the media room and this is one of the worst infractions ever seen in NASCAR. Buddy Baker said the fines and suspensions are going to be the biggest in the history of NASCAR and will tarnish the Gibbs organization and Toyota and the drivers for a long time.
Plus the word from Tony is that the magnets had to be placed there before the race because the officials walked along with the cars after the race to the chassis dyno. they were clearly trying to hide the HP that the Toyotas have and Tony even said let the chips fall where they fall. Quote “I had nothing to do with it”
Now the first run on the dyno the car of Vickers, Logano, and Stewart were close when it came to HP but when they took the magnets out they were way over in HP. they have been cheating for a long time and should have there wins taken away from them for the season and all crew chiefs throw out of the garage for the rest of the season.
Maybe these magnetic shims were a safety and cost saving device.
Safety device as in it doesn’t let the throttle get wide open, so if it sticks it won’t be stuck wide open.
Cost saving device because it won’t let you get the RPMs up into the “no-zone” as much since you would not be running full throttle.
I’m not really trying to defend them, just playing devils advocate.
Fisha695 wrote:
FISHA< why even bother coming up with this crap, JD GIBBS admitted in a press conference that someone did that to the cars and will take the penalities and will fire the people who did this so why are you even taking like they didnt cheat, everyone knows they cheated and they have admitted it
ENGLISHMAN (HOWIE)
GET OVER IT, THIS IS THE FIRST RACE THAT THEY HAVE DONE SOMETHING LIKE THIS. IM NOT DENYING THEY WERE OR WERE NOT CHEATING EITHER WAY, BEFORE TODAY THEY HAD NOT BEEN CAUGHT CHEATING ALL THEY WERE GUILTY OF WAS CREATING MORE HORSEPOWER, WHICH I REMIND IS NO OUTSIDE OF THE RULES. IF THEY WERE CHEATING TODAY THEN YES THEY NEED TO BE PENALIZED.
ENGLISHMAN (HOWIE)
WHEN YOU RECALL THERE IS ONE PERSON WHO HAS A PERSONAL VENDETTA AGAINST TOYOTA AND THAT WAS ROUSH, IT SEEMS TO ME HE GOT SOMEONE IN MWR AND NOW HE HAS GOT SOMEONE IN JGR TO WORK FOR HIM. IF THIS IS A SINGLE INDIVIDUAL THEN YES THEY NEED TO BE BANNED BUT NOT THE TEAM NOR THE DRIVER
You really are pretty stupid arent you? this is the first race they got caught. and as far as getting over it, i think you should get over it because it has not even begun yet. Toyotas name has damaged the sport again just like the Daytona incident with Michael. I hope Brad and Robin take all the points away and sanction Toyota for the rest of the season. they are damaging this sport and the team owners will not put up with this again
ENGLISHMAN
LOL LOL LOL LOL WHAT A JOKE, SINCE TOYOTA HAS DAMAGED THE SPORT MAYBE YOU SHOULD TELL TOYOTA HOW YOU FEEL, AND NOT ACCEPT THERE MONEY ANYMORE. BETTER YET ILL GIVE THEM YOUR NUMBER AND TELL THEM HOW YOU FEEL ABOUT THEM CAUSE IM SURE THEY WOULDNT WANT A BIASED PERSON TAKIN THERE PICS
As much as I hate hate hate to say it
Looks like Roush was right about Toyota
And maybe this is why Tony was encouraged to
Leave JGR.
Howie, that is some exceptional insight
Toyota are just lucky they didn’t get caught with this
In the cup series
Was vickers car involved in the magnet scandal or is
It just Gibbs?
Howie- you said that vickers and JGR were close in HP before the magnets were removed but that JGR were far above without the magnets. Don’t they both get their engines from TDR?
ROWDY BUSH wrote:
well that fine with me and them because the whole day I was accusing them of cheating and they dont have a problem with it. as a matter of fact I was doing it right in front of the fans so if you think you have something to hurt me you better come up with something better than that because Im one of the best in the business and everyone knows it.
TheTru7h wrote:
no JGR build there motors in house.
THETRUTH
I know you are always unbiased and and offer a good insight, but lets think about this everything howie said is pure speculation. Also if toyota had been doing this in either series they would have been caught way before now, so they or a person tried something questionable and they got caught, same as mwr last year, same as roush this year with edwards and the oil lid, this is what teamns do
ROWDY BUSH wrote:
NONE OF THIS IS SPECTULATION, THIS IS ALL FACT. your crap is nothing but spectulation. as far as them not getting caught until now the bottom of a gas pedal does not draw alot of attention.but it will now.
ENGLISHMAN
As far as you being one of the best, lol lol lol ok if you were a professional you would not laugh in the face of your customers fans. If you were a man, you would go tell toyota they were cheaters and not there fans, the fans have nothing to do with this so dont tell them, tell the toyota reps. thats sounds like “JOHNNY ONE TRUCK PHOTOGRAPHY” lets face it, I know who you are, and you a joke as is the comments you make, you hear the same thing everyone else hears, you just make a bigger deal about it. Someone cheated oh no this is new to out sport what do we do
Good point Rowdy:
Toyota I doubt would try such a device in the Cup series,
But the lack of importance of the Nationwide series to the organization
Prompted the team to be cheeky and circumvent Nascars dyno- which is undoubtebly the most outlandish violation I have heard of since Smokey Yunion ran a turbocharger off the fly wheel of his car back in the day.
JGR deserve the punishment they are getting for this infraction. However, I believe it was a one-off. It was a cheeky move by some JGR crew member done as a result of the last dyno test that brought about Nascar cutting down their HP.
ROWDY BUSH wrote:
well lets see there were 6 official Toyota people there all day with me and like I said they were laughing right along with me. and as far as you knowing who I am anyone can make a call and find out who I am. I have been in this sport along time and my years taking shots of Sr, have made me just as famous as Sam Bass with over a half million prints of him sold as every NASCAR weekend. Im not some jerk like you who cant even use their real name
I’m still struggling to grasp that such a powerful organization
That is built off of Christian principles, as stated by Joe Gibbs, would do
Such a detrimental thing.
TheTru7h wrote:
I dont think Joe had any knowedge of any of this but I dont put anything past JD, I never liked that guy and alot of other people feel the same way as I do. You can bet at 8am tomorrow morning heads are going to roll at JGR. I would not want to be sitting at that big Cherrywood table with Joe at the other end knowing I was the guy or guys that did this
Maybe it was a TRD part…. No not that TRD the other one, Triad Racing Development…. they make Pedal assemblies for NASCAR teams…. l0l
Fisha695 wrote:
FISHA< what is wrong with you, they got caught their is no excuse for it, what they did was illegal and thats that. this has rocked the NASCAR nation and everyone involved. this is not even 24 hours old and it is the biggest scandal in NASCAR history.
Maybe it’s because I’m a fan of various types of racing besides stock car racing, and maybe it’s because it’s really not that big of a scandal.
NASCAR created the Toyota HP problem themselves when Toyota came into the sport and NASCAR said here is a Chevy, Dodge, and Ford engine make one that can compete with them. Toyota did, and it took Mark Conquist to fine tune that engine to be within the rules and still make more HP.
Heck I’ve seen a lot worse done to cars in NASCAR “scandal” wise then an extra large pedal stop. And really all teams need to do if they have an illegal engine is DW it right after the finish and then NASCAR would have no engine to test…. Or NASCAR could Blow up the engines themselves like they did to Ernie Irvin’s back in the day.
im not shocked at all. It was obvious something was going on and most the time its easiest to find out what by looking for what is doing the covering up. I REALLLY wish they found this on the 18 car in cup though. Tha would have made my day
Fisha695 wrote:
you cant blow the motors up due to the MSD box and rev limiters built in to the box.
Pull the Chip out, Teams have done it before, and it’s real easy to blow a motor up no matter what rev-limiter you have in it by simple shifting to the “wrong” gear.
no the rev limiter was designed for missing a gear, that is the purpose of it you can miss a gear and that is when you get up on the chip.all it does is eliminate spark to certain cylinders.
ROWDY BUSH wrote:
FIRST OF ALL OF SOME JERK WHO CANT USE THERE REAL NAME, YOU ARENT USING YOUR NAME EITHER SO THINK ABOUT THAT,
SECONDLY, SO YOUR TELLING ME YOU WERE WITH 6 TOYOTA OFFICIALS LAUGHING AT THEM AND TELLING THEM THEY WERE CHEATERS AND THEY WERE LAUGHING ALONG WITH YOU, I DONT SEE THAT HAPPENING, WHY WOULD TOYOTA OFFICIALS LAUGH AT A JOKE ABOUT THEM CHEATING SOME PHOTOGRAPHERIS TALKING ABOUT
GET OVER YOURSELF, YOU THINK CAUSE YOU TOOK A FW POLAROIDS OF SR, YOU KNOW EVERYTHING LIKE WHATS GOING TO HAPPEN AT JGR AND HOW THE FINES ARE GOING BE, LIKE SOMEONE TOLD YOU. LETS FACE IT, NOTHING HAS HAPPENED YET AND LIKE I SAID EARLIER ANY THING YOU SAY IS SPECULATION OF WHAT WILL HAPPEN.
As for head going to roll at JGR, Im sure the same thing was said after the “scandal” last year guess what all the same people are still there. Lets face we will never know the real story, and they are going to sugar coat it the best they can.
If they had been cheating the whole time they would have been caught then also. I knew this
was going to blow up into some crap. I agree that they should have fines for cheating but
I am tired of people acting like they are the only ones that do it. Hello Roush was caught this
year, like Junior Johnson said in an interview earlier in the year. Everyone does it.
Is our little Rowdy crying? Go to mommy Rowdy, you are such a baby and a punk. Every time I come on here I have to read your posts and you make me want to throw up. I bet you have never been to a race in your life. you are the most unintelligent person that is on here. You cant stand it when other people know more than you, and I know that when Howie says something is is usually true and from a good source. I have met him and I have been around the people at Toyota he is with. they are one big happy family and yes they cut up on Toyota all the time in front of the fans.
OH AND LEARN HOW TO SPELL!!!
Seriously, as Howie said this is without a doubt one of the biggest
and most blatant violations of NASCAR rules in the last 10 years
easily.
To try and cheat in a race is one thing. But to try and cheat a NASCAR test? Rediculously dumb.
And teresa, you dont make yourself sound any more intelligent with the ratteling on you just posted.
This forum is about JGR and its Nationwide cars being busted big time for cheating,
not your personal vendetta against other members of this forum.
(You dont have to agree with others, just be respectful to them as they are entitled to their opinion as well, however wrong it may be)
I agree, this is huge and it will rock the Nationwide Series and it will make getting sponsorship even harder for teams now because no one wants to pour money into a series that they might not be able to win in because of a disadvantage by another team or manufacturer. I think that the way JGR operates that by now which it is 9am that they know who it is and they are hopefully out the door.
I meant advantage not disadvantage
So because of 1 persons bad judgement, your going to throw everyonbe under the bus. I was told 1 person is at fault for this. He tried to get the engine tunner to mess with the revlimiter but he said no. The engine tuner reported this to the crew chief. Then this one person put the magnet on the back of the throttle. this is busch mind you, not in cup. And Gibbs is a christian run company, and his employes do come first. This employee should be fired. And as for Tony saying what he said, he isn’t a driver anymore hes a “car owner”.
Agreed teresa, however I hope they fire the right person
Remember in the MWR ‘Jet Fuel’ scandal, crew chief David Hyder
was basically a scapegoat for the organization..
Kyle fan wrote:
I dont know where you would get this that 1 person is involved because no one was saying anything and the rev limiter has nothing to do with none of this. The cars in question had run the race and the MSD boxes dont control HP they control spark to the plugs. and as far as Tony not being a driver anymore, do you even watch NASCAR ? he is a driver and when he goes to SHR he will be a driver there.
I didn’t say it was the msd did I. I’m telling you what I was told by a close friend who happens to know people. How do you know it wasn’t 1 person who did this? Were you there? Tony took all this as an owner not a driver. Howie you think you know everything, but all you do is force your opinion on everyone. You think your the only person who knows people? Remember there are a lot of people in racing.
Lets not all forget when Roush got caught cheating and Carl Edwards was docked his 10 points. And shall we bring up Hendrick, when there cars wouldnt fit the templets?
Do you not understand sarcasm Howie.
Rowdy what you Fail to think about is the fact that it was not just as easy as grabing a magnet from the local hardware store and putting it in there, it would have to be the proper thickness to drop the RPM’s down to were the horse power was that of the other toyota and in the new specs. This means it would have had to be figured and tested with the motor in the car and everything setup as if it was for the NASCAR test. If the magnet was to thin they would of still got more RPM’s and shown more Horse power, if it was to thick they would have shown less horse power and raised questions from NASCAR. So IMHO
this is something that several people including the drivers had to know about (you cant tell me the drivers didn’t notice the lower RPM’s) and Maybe the Drivers even put them in place on the cool down lap and they were not there during the race!!! Eather way it was a ettempt to cheet on NASCAR’s horsepower test and have more power during the upcoming races. This is a VERY serious infraction and as Howie said may be the worst in NASCAR’s History, THere is no Excuse or in your case Rowdy, Stupid remark, that can change this Fact!!!
BTW Rowdy only 10 year olds type in all caps.
Kyle fan wrote:
Sarcasm and much of what your trying to say it appears
They dood it, Now they’re gonna get a MAJOR whooping!
Kyle fan wrote:
Yes I am there everyday and i do get everything first hand. I don’t think you know but the garage area is a very small place and we our usually there when something happens. thats what we get paid to do. Nothing gets done on any car by anyone without other people knowing about it especially to 2 cars at once. We knew that NASCAR noticed a crew member with his head in the 20 car and he said he was looking for a pair of gloves and that NASCAR thought something was going on but that crew member couldn’t have done both cars and if they did it was under Dave Rogers orders.
ROWDY BUSH wrote:
Maybe you should GET OVER IT,you sit on here and talk your garbage on how good they are and yet they just got caught red handed.just because they didn’t get caught till now does not mean they were not cheating the whole year.
Toyota shouldn’t even be in the sport because the motor they use is strictly built for racing and can not be bought in a production car. everyone else’s motor can be bought in a production car.
Kyle fan wrote:
)
I don’t think of this as one persons bad judgement because nothing gets done to these cars by a single individual unless it is the crew chief.this was carefully planned out because both cars were involved.
The throttle stops used on these cars are threaded so that they can be adjusted. the use of a 1/4 inch magnet could take as much as 10-12 hp away from these cars.they were trying to hide the extra hp.
teresa88fan wrote:
Your right, people remember things like this and thats why its important for the Gibbs organization to fire all those involved even if it is the crew chiefs.and I think NASCAR will go easier on them if they do that. Joe Gibbs will get to the bottom of this but his organization is tarnished now along with all the wins they got this year.
Wow stop the personal attacks.
I told you so isn’t really a mature thing to say.
People are entitled to their opinion and have their opinions without
people combating those opionions just because they believe something different.
Someone made an interesting comment above regarding toyotas motor.
Every other manufacter (Chevy, Ford, Dodge) make it available the necessary components to build
a cup engine if you wanted. However Toyota doesnt do this, showing just how closed loop they erally are
in regards to Motorsports operations
I can’t remember a violation like this one before….trying to hide how strong your engine is!! I have heard of drivers blowing up engines and things like that. The magnet trick is new for me….
Well, I’ve read everyone’s comments (and laughed at some of them!) and it seems to me that we’re leaving out something very important; the drivers’ involvement.
Are any of us really foolish enough to believe that the magnets – which were put there before the cars rolled out and were there for post-race inspection – were not removed for the race? When we talk about involvement and blame this is not one person’s bad judgment rather we are looking at at the very least two drivers, two crew and/or car chiefs, the engine shop … And if this worked in the nationwide series you think that they would not try the same in Sprint? If we’re smart enough to consider it I am more than certain that NASCAR is, even though penalties cannot cross over.
I am a Tony Stewart fan, and I am sorry to see that he will be leaving JGR under the dark cloud of a cheating scandal, but we should all remember one thing; the closer NASCAR tightens the rules the more it becomes a game to see who can cheat without getting caught. Frankly I found this ‘incident’ quite inventive and I cannot help but wonder how long they could have gotten away with it.
That is if the Officials were not tipped off ….
You know, it seems everyone wants to say how KB didnt win his victories now, and then I see how SMOKE is still a good driver and it wouldnt be fail to penalize him, well if this has been going on all season, then everyone that has driven this car should be penalized.
Plus how do you penalize a team thats not running for the championship, we know point asn money really wont hurt this team. I love JGR and joe and JD both said they will find out who is responsible for this and take actions against them whatever that may be. Correct me if im wrong but Mikey said the same thing last year then you never really heard anymore about it, he fored the crew chief and then hired him back and we still dont know, how that stuff got into mikeys carb. At that point in time mikey said what he needed to to get everyone off his back and it worked, nascar took there actions against MWR, and everything mikey said he would not I never saw any of that follow through.
finally lets face it, at this point all we know is that the magnetic shimms were there, we arent sure how or when they got there, we arent even sure who put them there> i have heard it was roush who hire someone to do it, which lets face it if that was to happen whith all the cameras from howie and other still cameras to all the tv cameras and to all the amateur cameras someone would have seen that happen, so i think we can assume it was someone inside of gibbs. until nascar comes out and tells we wont know, we can speculate all we want but like if the mwr situation we still dont know how that got there we can speculate but situations we will never know.
as for anonymous and the rest of you characters who say im crying maybe i am oh well, but look at the very first comment here adn what i said, everyone is ready to hang the driver and not the person responisble for doing this. At this point we are not aware if this has been happening all season or just this last race, and im sure we will soon find out. If you’ll want to chastize someone, why dont you wait till everything is out on the table and we know who is responsible, also kyle wasnt the only one driving one of those cars, smoke, hamlin, and logano also should be on youlls choppin block.
I got a question??????????????
Edwards throws a water bottle out of his car, during the race. Whic there was no caution and penalty. Eventhough it was somewhat insignificant and didnt cause any issues. In the past we have seen foam from a roll bar, drivers gloves and drivers getting penalized because of that. Now eventhough in the past drivers didnt due that cause he needed a caution but why should some people get special treatment and others not.
If they cheated…then there should be punishments. Plain and simple. NASCAR’s sanctioning body needs to be consistent in their fines and punishments though.
But … Edwards made an attempt to go to the bottom of the track first, as opposed to being up in traffic.
NASCAR often views such minor incidents with a ‘no harm, no foul’ grain of salt. Edwards did not – not did it appear he attempted to – bring out a caution for personal gain (remember Jr’s “How’d you like my spin?” that got him a nice fat penalty a couple of years ago?) or attempt to interfere with another driver either passively or aggressively.
Was it stupid? Yup – they have these cool little inventions in their cars called cup-holders. Will NASCAR give him a little fine tomorrow? Maybe; lots of guys get Tuesday fines for incidents that do not rate comment on any of the shows. Chances are Kyle Bush will get a fine for his comment “I’ll wreck him” as well. Which was equally out of line.
Lest your memory fail you – Robbie threw his glove out to get a debris caution. When the officials realized it was a driver’s glove all they needed to do was find a driver missing a glove. That’s where the penalty came from.
Howie, you’ve got it nailed straight on. No one has mentioned that none of the JGR Cup cars were pulled for dyno after Michigan because Helton didn’t want to further embarrass the Saintly JGR organization…
You’d have to be missing a few screws to think that scrub could go from the most dominant equipment last year with a single win to a cheating rice burner this year and all of a sudden he’s a ‘wheel man’ – puleeze you morons. He’s nothing but a reckless hack that was picked to succeed this year because NA$CAR doesn’t want to lo$e Yota’s $$$.
The first time I heard it referred to as entertainment I lost it (btw, all ‘entertainment’ involves scripts…).
BDEHOLL
First of all, HOWIE or nobody else here knows the exact reasons why NASCAR decided what cars to pull for DYNO, if anything they would have pulled all of the gibbs cars.
Secondly, is it really fair to blame the cup teams for bad choices the nationwide teams made.
Thirdly, I understand everyone hates Kyle, but how come nobody is taking away from smoke, eventhough he hasnt won, he still isnt running bad, so whats fair for one gibbs driver is fair for all of them.
As for him being a reckless hack i have really bad news for you and all the other haters,im pretty sure nascar has a little more insight then anyone about this series and im sure if they thought the cup cars of KB or the gibbs had an unfair advantage, they would have resolved it. As for KB being in the best equipment and last year, well jimmy, jeff and jr are still in the “best equipment” and they havent done much this year. As for nascar being scripted thats a opinion, but not one i would beleive in
ROWDY BUSH wrote:
****************************************************************
They’ve probably been cheating since seasons start…………
ROWDY BUSH wrote:
***************************************************************
KB probably been doing it in cup too, just hasn’t been caught yet, now for sure if he was, he will quit so he don’t lose any points…
Just funny all of a sudden he is winning a bunch of races when he didn’t do crap at Hendrick…
Jason
That is a possibility, but until it is proven how can anyone make that assumption. If they are found to be cheating all season then yes they need to be penalized. Until nascar proves that to be true all we have is this past weekend to make our opinions on.
Howie Motorsports Photography wrote:
*****************************************************************
Junk those Japanese makes and put American names back in…….
TheTru7h wrote:
*******************************************************************
They won’t get caught now, I bet everything has been pulled in the cup, so KB won’t lose his position in the standings, fact or fiction, I say fact !!!
Rowdy, pretend instead of JGR it’s the Red Army (or PRK) women’s gymnastics team and instead of Hendrick it’s the good ol’ USA women’s team. When a gymnast makes no major errors but still finishes out of the medals, and the one with gold lands OB 2X, something just ain’t right now is it… Tony not getting any wins this year is identical to Jr.’s DNFs of last year – Smoke’s getting 4th rate equipment in a 3 car team.
Run Tony, run!
Jason for one this article was about the nationwide series and not cup. Next if you want to blame the driver the you need to add smoke, hamlin, and logano to that list. As for junking the jap cars that are made in america maybe you should look at the domestic manufactuers that are closing there plants in the u.s. for cheap labor outside of the u.s. So lets stick to topic which is about ” JOE GIBBS RACING CHEATING IN THE NATIONWIDE SERIES”
BDEHOLL
Ok ill go with that possible scenario, then tell me would there be this much discontent against smoke as there is against kyle. Would you be calling smoke a cheater they way evertone is accusing kyle of cheating. the answer is hell no, everyone hated smoke when he was brash and winning once he settled in people liked him, so dont try and pin all this on KB hes doing his job pin it on JGR
Kyle fan wrote:
***************************************************************
I thought it was DEI that didn’t fit the templates?, Martin Truex Jr’s car that the template didn’t fit???
Hendrick 2007 Sonoma – JJ and Jeffie.
IMHO scrub is a hack and JG is a phoney, period. Tony is a racer, period.
I detest scrub’s attitude. Heck, he couldn’t even congratulate his brother on his win earlier this year. Nothing but a 2 bit punk and I personally can’t wait to see one of the NCTS drivers plant him.
ROWDY BUSH wrote:
*****************************************************************
Dummy Rowdy, have you ever heard of FREEDOM OF SPEECH ????????? FREEDOM OF THE PRESS???????????
Even if Howie did laugh in their face or at them, there is NOT a damn thing they can do to Howie, They cannot suspend him from his duties or they cannot fire him from his services, if they tried such of a thing, Howie would be RICH, what I am saying Howie can basically do that, GET IT ???
I know, my boss fired me once for calling him a idiot @sshole and I ended up with $ 150,000.00 and my job back and him fired…
ROWDY BUSH wrote:
*****************************************************************
Why would you think Howie is not his real name?
Jason,
You are so far behind the conversation that took place its not even funny, all of that has already been discussed, and maybe if you were apart of theconversation when it took place, i would respond. Since your 2 days late trying to start more drama im not going to respond.
ROWDY BUSH wrote:
****************************************************************
Great, you don’t know what the “H” you’re talking about anyway…….
OK JASON
Either way this room was abot people bashing Kyle kissing smokes butt and ignoring the other 2 grivers of the cars in qustion.
ROWDY BUSH wrote:
******************************************************************
Are U saying Kyle walks on water?, what would you do if they found out he was cheating all season?, would you be such a loyal fan then?
Plus how do you penalize a team thats not running for the championship?= If you never had a speeding ticket all your life and all of a sudden got one, would you call that unfair?, same crap, waaah, I am not competing for a championship, why would I get fined now???
I am a safe driver and never got a speeding ticket, why now?
I have heard it was roush who hire someone to do it= Roush wouldn’t be that stupid to do that…
also kyle wasnt the only one driving one of those cars, smoke, hamlin, and logano also should be on youlls choppin block.= why is he the only one winning on the team then?, and then not nothing on Hendrick… WEIRD HUH, I would say he was driving one of these cars, I was Kyles age once and I was pretty slick on getting away with things…
I bet you would feel pretty stupid if you found out your racer was doing these violations wouldn’t you, or maybe you wouldn’t cause you MIGHT be a cheater too…
Fornax wrote:
******************************************************************
Good comment!!!
ROWDY BUSH wrote:
****************************************************************
As for KB being in the best equipment and last year, well jimmy, jeff and jr are still in the “best equipment” and they havent done much this year.== Cause they aren’t using magnets…LOL
ROWDY BUSH wrote:
*****************************************************************
It’s still a Jap car no matter where it’s made, Jap parts, probably a majority of Jap workers !!!
CHEVY= THE HEARTBEAT OF AMERICA= AMERICA- USA if you don’t know what USA means…
Jason,
You are all over the page here, as for your comment about Kyle being the only person on the team winning, we are talking abut the nationwide series here not the cup series. Which goes with my point about the penalities, it easy to penalize any of these guys, but lets ace it money isnt an issue to them, they can take all the points away they want, and it wont impact them cause they arent running for a championshion, maybe the owners championship but not individual drivers. You should also read my comments. like i said they are found guilty then they need to be penalized.
As for chevy being the hearbeat of america, im pretty sure toyota is closing to employing more americans the any of the big 3 as for yotas being jap parts your right but guess what so are the rest of the cars made, there is not one american vehicle that has all of its parts made in america.
Jason,
You are all over the page here, as for your comment about Kyle being the only person on the team winning, we are talking abut the nationwide series here not the cup series. Which goes with my point about the penalities, it easy to penalize any of these guys, but lets ace it money isnt an issue to them, they can take all the points away they want, and it wont impact them cause they arent running for a championshion, maybe the owners championship but not individual drivers. You should also read my comments. like i said they are found guilty then they need to be penalized.
As for chevy being the hearbeat of america, im pretty sure toyota is closing to employing more americans the any of the big 3 as for yotas being jap parts your right but guess what so are the rest of the cars made, there is not one american vehicle that has all of its
Jason wrote:
Actually in a somewhat Ironic twist, The majority of Toyota’s that are sold in the USA are made in the USA by US Citizens using Majority USA made parts, while the majority of Chevy, Ford, and Dodge’s are made in Canada and Mexico using parts made throughout the world including Japan, and being assembled by Canadians and Mexicans.
Jason wrote:
You have no concept of how the Magnets worked do you? THEY SLOWED THE CAR DOWN. They were put in place as Pedal stops to prevent the gas pedal from being pushed all the way down, and probaly prevent it from being pushed to the engines sweet spot in the powerband so it would appear they would not have as much HP/Torque.
If they would have ran that Magnet stop in the race the cars would have actually been slower due to less HP and less Torque.
So next time, Think before you type.
Fisha695 wrote:
****************************************************************
Well no duhhh, I think I am well more qualified to know what’s going on here fisha more so than you since I am a 26 year ASI registered mechanic, the top business in my town according to the chamber of commerce, and yes, I do know that, less HP in the dyno and more on the track, what doe’s that tell you?
Take the magnets out before racing on the track !!!
So I guess you’re the one who needs to think before you type, LOL……….
Jeez, you guys are ridiculous. I am a fan of all the drivers in this sport as long as they are on a level playing field. I am not a fan of the “gray area” in racing. I have known Gary Nelson for years and he was one of the crew chiefs that for years has pushed the envelope on every race car he worked on. Well, he was so good at working the “gray area” that NASCAR hired him to police the garage area. This thing with Toyota’s is NOT about the drivers but about crew chiefs and engineers. The driver just puts on his suit and helmet and gets in the car and drives. He knows nothing about what is under the hood or under his foot. I do believe that NASCAR shouldn’t have let TOYOTA in this sport without developing a motor that they would put in there production car as well as there race cars. Anyone can design a 358 cu.in. motor that can produce tons of HP but that is not what stock car racing is about, its about the drivers talent behind the wheel and I just don’t think that’s been happening since TOYOTA has entered the sport.
ROWDY BUSH wrote:
******************************************************************
What is a penalities?
What doe’s this mean? but lets ace it money isnt an issue to them.
What is a championshion champion-she-on?
And BTW, yota or toyota whatever you want to call it, are 98% Jap parts in them, I know I work on them daily…
JASON JASON JASON
LOL ok i spelled some things wrong no breaking nes there i do in every post. As fot Toyota being 98% jap parts i dont beleive anyone ever denied that, but your precious domestic cars are also made up of foreign parts, and primarily made out of this country. As for you being ASI registered, Im curious dont you mean ASE CERTIFIED, I have never heard of ASI. Tell me if you were talking about ASE how mant certifications do you have and do you even know how many it takes to be master certified.
Jason one last question, as HOWIE has said in the past, Hendrick should be going to Acura in 2010, how will you feel about that team when they are racing acura motora and are no longer racing the chevy
ROWDY BUSH wrote:
******************************************************************
It takes 25 certifications to be a ASE Master, I have 29 certs, ASI is a diesel degree…
You also have to be re-certified every 5 years to keep yourself current…
HMMMMMMMMMM must have changed I was sure it was 8 certs, to be master certified….
Well that explains it then, I know why you love the chevys, its cause they keep you in business with repairs. You hate the toyotas cause they are never in your shop and dont bring you any money.
ROWDY BUSH wrote:
*******************************************************************
Depends what you work on to be certified, it takes 9 for automotive, diesel it takes several, and yes I do work on all types of japanese autos including toyota, toyotas are my biggest business, minor touch ups on domestic unless owned and driven by some hot rod punk…
Well thats a shame toyotas are so bad they are always in the shop and the domestics are hardly ever there, you would think that if the domestics are so reliable there resale value would be better. Sorry jason its no secret, but import cars mainly toyota lexus honda and acura are far superior in longevity and over all resale value, and just better all around vehicles/ The main proof of this is you dont see the import comapnies struggling to stay afloat as you do with gm and ford and the others, where the domestic companies are closing up toyota and others are building more plants here in the u.s and employing more americans then the big 3. Also why do you think toyota is on the verge of surpassing gm as number 1 in sales truth speaks volumes
ROWDY BUSH wrote:
*******************************************************************
How come you own a Ford pickup then?
???
Rowdy is so goofy that’s how they discovered the word dummy!!!
Cause you cant beat the power of a ford diesel and I love the truck but I will be the first to tell you its a piece of junk, multiple issue with the turbo also simple things like lights on the dash its been in the shop more then ive had it, now my other car the new lexus ISf not a single issue no recalls no simple issue and this is the first year of this car being in production,
Plus the 350 as soon as it was driven off the lot, you can expect an automatic loss of thousands and you will never get that money back out of it, and what would make u think ihad a ford truck anyway are you the one working on it
ROWDY BUSH wrote:
*****************************************************************
If I were working on it, I would have to know all the bugs it has, and those bugs would be fixed for a long time to come, I put my shop reputation on what I say, which in dollar value is almost $ 500,000.00……..
And you never know, I might know who you are, but I’ll never tell, that’s how I know you drive a Ford………
Anonymous wasn’t me, but I’ll let the explanation go as it is written, shame on you anonymous trying to act like me……
Jason wrote:
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
If they go to Acura they go, I don’t think Hendrick will though, he’s a Chevy man…
JASON
LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL you messed up buddy, nest time when you try to get 3 conversations going make sure when you reply to a person you are using the right name lol lol
BTW,
I have no idea if they will go acura thats what howie said he heard in 2010 would happen. I just cant wait to see everyones precious JR JJ and JG driving imports. See if youll treat acura the same as youll have toyota
ROWDY BUSH wrote:
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
I guarantee Junebug won’t drive an Acura, he is 100% Chevy…
ROWDY BUSH wrote:
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Again that wasn’t me, probably your buddy Fisha695 doing it or some other doofus buddy of yours, I always display my name, even if I wanted to go anonymous, I wouldn’t know how…
Sorry jason I think your busted buddy, that was definayley no reason for anonymous to act like you, lol lol lol
anyways its not that big of a deal i do have a question though you said your shop is worth 500,000. i assume that include tire machines and alignment machines and all that, thats actually alot of money for a shop pretty impressive
Did I start something here?
No Rowdy that wasn’t Jason, sorry Jason, just wanted to mess with you two since you guy’s seem deep in a dumb conversation!!!
LOL LOL OK
ROWDY BUSH wrote:
=====================================
I wouldn’t go as far as saying it’s worth $500,00.00, but pretty damn close…
10 Bay Garage right now, a tire machine in every other one except 2 bays, I have a Heavy Duty Truck alignment bay and a regular automotive alignment bay, planning on building on to it in 2009 spring season, maybe another 5 or so bays, my place could be over that amount by the time I get done with it…
As business is increasing somewhat, I got 4-6 more trucking contracts coming in soon, like Kenworth, Peterbuilt, Volvo, to name a few…
The automotive section of my business is just pocket change, you get alot more $$$ working on heavy equipment…
BTW, Anonymous said my shop is worth $ 500,000.00, not me, so you can believe what you want, but I repeat anonymous wasn’t me…
The penalties are out. The only one that surprised be is Joey and Tony being on probation but
that shouldn’t effect them. The big one’s are the Crew Chiefs, Car Chiefs, Engine Tuners from
both teams and one crew member being suspended indefinitely.
QUESTION???????????
are any of these guys other then the drivers involved in the cup series, and if so are they suspended from that series to or just the nationwideseries, nd yeah those are heavy heavy fines, but hey if they were cheating then they need to pay the price
2fan wrote:
*******************************************************************
What are the penalties?
Or the web address where I can read them for myself?
Yessssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss, they bit the bullet………
DAYTONA BEACH, Fla. — Joe Gibbs Racing has suspended two Nationwide Series crew chiefs for the remainder of the season in the wake of penalties handed down by NASCAR after rule violations were discovered by inspectors prior to post-race testing on the chassis dynamometer Aug. 16 at Michigan.
NASCAR announced that seven crew members — including No. 18 crew chief Jason Ratcliff and No. 20 crew chief Dave Rogers — have been placed on indefinite suspension.
– JOE GIBBS
In response, team owner Joe Gibbs said in a statement: “A poor decision was made by some key members of our organization, and 100 percent of the blame rests with us.”
Gibbs also noted that JGR would adding its own penalties to the team members on top of NASCAR’s sanctions.
“We had come to the conclusion that we would add to any NASCAR imposed penalties with the minimum being suspension for the remainder of the season for those involved, including our two Nationwide Series crew chiefs. There will also be an additional monetary fine beyond the amount announced by NASCAR earlier today, which will be the responsibility of those involved.”
A JGR spokesman confirmed to NASCAR.COM that team has suspended the seven crew members for the remainder of the season.
Both the Nos. 18 and 20 cars were found to be in violation of:
• Section 12-4-A (actions detrimental to stock car racing); 8-9 (competitive analysis — from time to time, NASCAR may determine, in the interest of competition, that it is necessary or appropriate to undertake an analysis of the performance capabilities of a car, car part, component or equipment. The Competitor shall take whatever steps are requested by NASCAR Officials for this purpose. NASCAR also has the right to seal or impound cars, car parts, components and/or equipment for this purpose);
• Section 12-4-Q (1): (car, car parts, components and/or equipment used that do not conform to NASCAR rules, detailed in Section 20A of the 2008 NASCAR Rule Book, or has not been approved by NASCAR prior to the event, or is not required for the normal functional operation of the race car, or has been altered to detract from or compromise its integrity or effectiveness, whether operational or not);
• Section 12-4-K: (when NASCAR Officials mandate inspection during the Event, if any car, car parts, components, and/or equipment which have been used in the Event are taken from the racing premises without permission of a NASCAR Official, or are tampered with by any member of the team or anyone associated with the team: Magnetic spacer attached under the gas pedal with the intent of compromising the chassis dynamometer test).
As a result, NASCAR issued the following penalties:
• Both of the drivers — Joey Logano of the No. 18 and Tony Stewart of the No. 20 — have been penalized with the loss of 150 championship driver points and placed on probation until Dec. 31. Joe Gibbs, owner of both of the cars, has likewise been penalized 150 championship owner points for each of those entries.
• Both crew chiefs — Ratcliff and Rogers — have been fined $50,000 and indefinitely suspended.
• From the No. 18 team, car chief Dorian Thorsen, engine tuner Michael Johnson, and crew member Toby Bigelow have been placed on indefinite suspension.
• From the No. 20 team, car chief Richard Bray and engine tuner Dan Bajek have been indefinitely suspended.
• In addition, the entire Nos. 18 and 20 Nationwide Series teams have been placed on NASCAR probation until Dec. 31.
“In our post-race inspection, our inspectors discovered some shims that were placed on the gas-pedal stop. They were magnets that were about a quarter-inch thick that prevented the accelerator from going 100 percent wide open,” said Robin Pemberton, vice president of competition for NASCAR.
It is not unusual for NASCAR to test cars on the chassis dynamometer, which measures rear-wheel horsepower. Officials have administered this test several times during the season, and the Nos. 18 and 20 cars were only two of several that were tested following the race.
“In 17 years we have never had any representative of Joe Gibbs Racing knowingly act outside of NASCAR’s rules, and that is something we consider essential to how we operate on a daily basis,” Gibbs said. “What we have determined is that these individuals involved used extremely poor judgment in attempting to alter the results of NASCAR’s dyno test following Saturday’s Nationwide Series race in Michigan.
“Although in no way was anything done that might have altered the race outcome, these JGR employees attempted to circumvent the NASCAR rule book and that is unacceptable.”
The JGR teams in question have dominated the series for much of the season, combining to win 14 of 25 races. The infractions come shortly after NASCAR announced rule changes for the Toyota engines used in the Nationwide Series last month. The guidelines were intended to cut 15 horsepower and level a playing field that fellow competitors had insisted was lopsided for much of the season because they believed the Toyota engines were producing more horsepower than other manufacturers.
“We take full responsibility and accept the penalties NASCAR has levied against us today,” Gibbs said. “We are, however, disappointed that NASCAR chose to place our drivers on probation, as they had no knowledge or involvement of this incident.”
Penalties
Owner Joe Gibbs loss of 150 owner points for Nos. 18 and 20 cars
Driver Joey Logano loss of 150 driver points, probation until Dec. 31
Driver Tony Stewart loss of 150 driver points, probation until Dec. 31
No. 18 crew chief Jason Ratcliff fined $50,000 and indefinitely suspended
No. 20 crew chief Dave Rogers fined $50,000 and indefinitely suspended
No. 18 car chief Dorian Thorsen placed on indefinite suspension
No. 18 engine tuner Michael Johnson placed on indefinite suspension
No. 18 crew member Toby Bigelow placed on indefinite suspension
No. 20 car chief Richard Bray placed on indefinite suspension
No. 20 engine tuner Dan Bajek placed on indefinite suspension
No. 18 team probation until Dec. 31
No. 20 team probation until Dec. 31